CPZ: Outcome - Roads to be Included

[Reg Adams]

The headlines are that the following roads will be included in the CPZ: Blandford Road (1-83 & 2-84); Cedars Road; Chaffinch Road; ClockHouse Road (to the Hampden Road junction); Elm Road; Queens Road; Rowden Road; Sidney Road; and ThayersFarm Road.

The following roads will be excluded from the CPZ: Acacia Road, Beckenham Road, Belmont Road, Betts Close, Blandford Avenue, Churchfields Road, Croydon Road, Durban Road, Gowland Place, Hampden Avenue, Hampden Road, Hayne Road, Kendall Avenue, Kendall Road, Malory Close, Westfield Road and YewTree Road.

There were about 760 valid votes cast in response to Bromley Council's recent consultation survey on a Controlled Parking Zone in this area. Overall, that represents a turn-out in excess of 50%. Based on the votes, the territory for the CPZ to be introduced has been defined. Where the majority of residents in a particular road voted in favour of a CPZ, that road will be included within the designated CPZ. The converse applies in those roads where the majority of respondents voted against having a CPZ in their road. The scope of the CPZ scheme will be reviewed six months after its introduction. During the review, residents and businesses in roads within the designated CPZ will be invited to comment on the extent to which the CPZ has achieved the outcomes they anticipated. Also by the time the review takes place, residents and businesses will have had time to assess the possible knock-on effects from parking displaced from roads within the CPZ.

A letter is being circulated to all residents within the original consultation area, providing further details. The next stage will be formal approval of the CPZ scheme at a future PortfolioHolder's Meeting (probably 26 Nov 2008 or 15 Jan 2009). These Meetings, like most Council Meetings, are held at The Civic Centre and the public is warmly invited to attend.

Many thanks to everyone who voted. It's good to know that Democracy is alive and well here.

[Jon Clarke]

Received the map through the door today and as expected there are more houses/flats/maisonettes than parking spaces, and that includes includes Pay & Display bays too. So not enough for residents, and so what space could have been permit, even though far from most houses is turned into a further revenue source.

There is also indiscriminate double yellow lines added infront of properties where others are only single yellow, thus even stopping residents the freedom to park infront of their house at the weekend.

It says that 'double yellow lines that operate 24 hours a day will be added in places unsuitable for vehicles to be parked' even though I doubt there has been one accident in ten years in said places and residents have enjoyed the freedom to park infront of their house. This is excessively used at the bottom of Clock House Road, even though it has the highest amount of flat/maisonette residents with cars. You'll find I guess they'll park 10 doors up and that will domino all the way up the road.

Motorcycles are treated as cars even thought they take up a fraction of the space.

If tradespeople visit the zones within the restricted period then they must either park in a pay and display, not close to the majority of properties or residents pay £2 each time and purchase guest permits in books of 15 = £30.

There are a lot of unanswered questions still. Presence of skips and or building materials on the roads? Zone 1 cars cannot park in Zone 2, no Zone 2 in 3, etc.

They do say that following the scheme being installed the area would be reviewed approximately six months after and the area either increased or reduced. Considering that they say it costs a lot of money to set up, and then employ Civil Enforcement Offices (traffic wardens) it's hard to believe they'd remove the CPZ.

Another 'informal' questionnaire is attached to the map and must be returned by the Friday 15th May 2009.

Further information: Contact Paul Nevard 020 8313 4889, email [e-mail] or [e-mail]

Nice to see the council 'informally' have introduced this all. Let CPZ Bingo commence.

Good luck to all those outside the CPZ you are about to be swamped... probably.

What a waste of time and money, amazing a Conservative council being anything but. Good vote loser.

[Caroline]

I live in Cedars Road and should like to know if residents permits will allow residents to park in the pay and display bays free of charge. I am concerned because sometimes I cannot find a parking place for my car and have to park where the pay and display bays will be. It would be a major inconvenience to have to move the car for 10am or pay extra to park where I now park for free.

I also wonder if they intend painting yellow lines over access driveways because I sometimes need to use this spot to park my car also. I do not have a problem with other people parking there.

I do not believe that a 2 hour restriction will make any difference to the Croydon Road end of Cedars Road, since most people park here for less than 2 hours to visit the Beckenham Beacon or the High Street. With Elm House Surgery moving to Beckenham Beacon I can only anticipate this problem increasing.

[Jon Clarke]

Hi Caroline, it does say that residents will have to pay and display in those fee paying bays, even if you have a permit. Also, thry are putting yellow lines in front of driveways and in some cases like ours double yellow lines which means we can't even park in front of our own house at weekends, which is contrary to why the scheme was set up.

We get on well with our neighbours and those with two cars have always been respectful in our part of clock house road, but they'll have to move their cars even further up the street and aprk them in front of others houses.
I would suggest the council listen to those residents affected and action their desire for no double yellows or they are not working to the interests of their residents.

Infact it would be easier just to make the whole area a blue line cpz, not mark out restrictive bays or double yellows and then residents who are actually paying for this can then park anywhere, as they have done for tens of years, without the extra commuter car parking congestion. It would be tens of thousands of pounds cheaper to set up and police too.

[Caroline]

Thank you for that Jon. They do indeed seem to be making it unnecessarily complicated. I shall return my questionnaire and hope that others do too. The way things are looking I'd rather have no CPZ than the complicated proposal.

[Niners]

Interesting document on the Council website setting out transport and parking policy across the borough http://www.bromley.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/71F13347-E4DD-4044-809E-02E1...

It's pretty down on the car user and shows that they will continue to bring in as many restrictions and zones as possible Point 7.45 & 7.46.

Also details on how it might be unfair, but not illegal for residents to rent their off-street parking spaces for more than the cost of an annual parking permit, and themselves use permits to park on-street. 7.23 & 7.24

So in essence the Council is committed to increasing CPZs, reducing planning quotas on new areas to address parking needs, raising revenues and trying to make residents give up their cars. All this in the third largest car owning borough in London, where residents travel the furthest for their average journey.

Railroading I think one calls that.

[marie shallcross]

this all sounds riduculously complicated and without full consideration of the consequences, for the roads both within the CPZ and those immediately surrounding them! as a hampden road resident I'm very grateful to jon for posting this up as its incredibly difficult to get information about the CPZ if you're in a surrounding road ( like we wont be affected...duh).
I still hold by my original premise that this particular 'warren' of roads should be treated as a whole, and that sensible restrictions are most likely to meet residents needs and be cost effective - both in the setting up and running costs for council and residents! a case of KISS (keep it simple, stupid) is needed maybe??

[Reg Adams]

Sarah, You asked why the CPZ scheme designed for the six roads on the south side of Beckenham Road (Clockhouse, Elm, Cedars, Queens, Sidney & Blandford) includes mid-day restriction only. I am told that this is because that was the majority preference of residents in those roads. I guess the rationale is that:

1) Rail-commuters are deemed to be bagging a lot of the available parking-spaces.

2) Rail-commuters will be far away from their cars at mid-day and therefore unable to move them out of the clutches of ticketing wardens.

3) £35 for a Permit with mid-day restrictions is a lot cheaper than £75 for a Permit with full-day restrictions.

REG

Sarah said:

Can anyone give me an idea of where we are with the CPZ issue? Its just that the last I heard (prob back in Nov/Dec) was that this was going to be implemented. Since then, nothing - not a word.

I vaguely remember the mention of a Council Meeting being held and it going up for discussion/approval - who knows ...

However, since then - nothing.

Its May in a couple of weeks - we could have invaded a country in the time this has taken.

Thx
Sarah

[F Thomas]

Jon
What makes you say that the addition of double yellow lines has been 'indiscriminate'? Have you checked with the planners on their criteria for deciding where to use double or single lines? I'd love to hear any evidence you have that they have been 'indiscriminate'.
Surely the consultation period up to 15th May gives you the chance to challenge these criteria.

I'm sure 'tradespeople' are perfectly capable of dealing with various different parking challenges in our area. There are probably many other areas in London where they can't park free directly in front of their temporary place of work. I bet they cope.

I know of an area in Greenwich where a CPZ was removed after 12 months, so maybe it could in this case.

Worth bearing in mind that the majority (although I think there's no doubt you didn't) voted for this?

Jon Clarke said:

Received the map through the door today and as expected there are more houses/flats/maisonettes than parking spaces, and that includes includes Pay & Display bays too. So not enough for residents, and so what space could have been permit, even though far from most houses is turned into a further revenue source.

There is also indiscriminate double yellow lines added infront of properties where others are only single yellow, thus even stopping residents the freedom to park infront of their house at the weekend.

It says that 'double yellow lines that operate 24 hours a day will be added in places unsuitable for vehicles to be parked' even though I doubt there has been one accident in ten years in said places and residents have enjoyed the freedom to park infront of their house. This is excessively used at the bottom of Clock House Road, even though it has the highest amount of flat/maisonette residents with cars. You'll find I guess they'll park 10 doors up and that will domino all the way up the road.

Motorcycles are treated as cars even thought they take up a fraction of the space.

If tradespeople visit the zones within the restricted period then they must either park in a pay and display, not close to the majority of properties or residents pay £2 each time and purchase guest permits in books of 15 = £30.

There are a lot of unanswered questions still. Presence of skips and or building materials on the roads? Zone 1 cars cannot park in Zone 2, no Zone 2 in 3, etc.

They do say that following the scheme being installed the area would be reviewed approximately six months after and the area either increased or reduced. Considering that they say it costs a lot of money to set up, and then employ Civil Enforcement Offices (traffic wardens) it's hard to believe they'd remove the CPZ.

Another 'informal' questionnaire is attached to the map and must be returned by the Friday 15th May 2009.

Further information: Contact Paul Nevard 020 8313 4889, email [e-mail] or [e-mail]

Nice to see the council 'informally' have introduced this all. Let CPZ Bingo commence.

Good luck to all those outside the CPZ you are about to be swamped... probably.

What a waste of time and money, amazing a Conservative council being anything but. Good vote loser.

[Jon Clarke]

Yes I'm against it on the basis that it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's a revenue source generator for the council, stealth tax and it just moves the problem on to others. Not very neighbourly. Balgowan Primary School has not been contacted about this CPZ by the Council even though they are on the ouside boundary edge of the CPZ and expect a huge amount of cars now circling the narrow roads there around morning school time.

Those who wanted a CPZ will find there are just as many cars fighting over less spaces, at those peak times, because the council has decided not to create enough parking spaces for residents. The Pay & Display are testiment to the revenue generation requirements of the council. It is not about commuter parking, it is about their need to conform to guidelines set down by City Hall. If it was about residents needs then they could easily create a large CPZ that each car in it is registered with a permit and no markings need be applied to the roads. Those cars found within the extended zone at the wrong times would then be ticketed.

Regarding double yellow lines. If they were not required in the past, they don't need to be painted now. The fact that entrance ways to some houses and access paths are single yellows yet others which offer no need for double yellows let alone a single one shows planners have not bothered to talk to the residents earlier about whether they are needed or not.

Again if this is about commuter parking then single yellow restricted to Monday to Friday are all that are required. Double yellow penalises those home owners at the weekends when there isn't a need to restrict traffic parking.

I'm happy to debate the issues with those for or against the scheme on here, at least here residents get to discuss it. The Council should perhaps engage residents like this to understand their local nighbourhoods better, instead of sending limited and controlled surveys.

[sue]

> As somebody who ultimately voted NO -because I mistrusted the council's motivation for introducing a CPZ- I am now even more dismayed to read the recently delivered brochure/document
> I have so many questions but let me express the first few of my concerns.

The first thing to hit me was the multitude of pay and display areas down Cedars Road, on the end of Elm Road and Queens Road etc. Straight away this tells me that the council are in the business of making money from people who want to park - rather than helping residents to park close to their homes. Perhaps I have a short memory but when the council were consulting us on the CPZ did they tell us just how many Pay and Display areas there would be in the CPZ?
>Secondly - Does anybody read these HOURS of OPERATION rules the way I do?
> If you are in Zone 2&3 the residents parking bays will only operate during the restriction time.(10-12) Does this mean anybody can park in them outside these hours? If this is the case then I cannot see how the CPZ will be of assistance to residents unless the only time you need to park is between 10 -12 The traffic will continue to come and go in the area throughout the day, for the Leisure centre, Beacon Hospital, the GP surgeries within the hospital,stations and trams etc. So are we paying a permit to park for two hours per day and running the risk the rest of the time? - and let me say here and now I bet we have all picked up fines by the end of the year!

I fully appreciate we have an issue with commuters parking in the area for the stations/trams etc but I do not believe that this council scheme is to help the residents. I would urge people to read their brochure and see if you read it the way I do. It seems the truth is within this brochure but it has only just come to light and we will all pay heavily.

Could we ask for a public meeting? Could there be a chance to vote again on the grounds that the council did not fully describe the plan? Do we know the vote was genuininely counted? I think we should have some reassurance/guarantee that if this impacts negatively on those both within the CPZ but also (as I suspect it will) on the poor people just around the scheme, we have the vote to get rid of it. I would like to know exactly how much the scheme is costing to implement and what the revenue will be. They will possibly receive more parking applications than parking bays -isn't that taking money for a service which is not provided? We have three working people in our house who need cars for their employment. I'm sure other households will be in a similar position. Just how many people's money will they take for so few parking bays? They have taken those potential parking bays, made them pay and display and used them for revenue.

I have ticked the No boxes on the questionnaire. I have also registered that I do not agree with the proposed scheme. I have asked for clarity on the document. I feel as though I have come over all 'Citizen Smith' but I have a bad feeling about this scheme that we are about to allow happen in our streets.

Jon Clarke said:

Received the map through the door today and as expected there are more houses/flats/maisonettes than parking spaces, and that includes includes Pay & Display bays too. So not enough for residents, and so what space could have been permit, even though far from most houses is turned into a further revenue source.

There is also indiscriminate double yellow lines added infront of properties where others are only single yellow, thus even stopping residents the freedom to park infront of their house at the weekend.

It says that 'double yellow lines that operate 24 hours a day will be added in places unsuitable for vehicles to be parked' even though I doubt there has been one accident in ten years in said places and residents have enjoyed the freedom to park infront of their house. This is excessively used at the bottom of Clock House Road, even though it has the highest amount of flat/maisonette residents with cars. You'll find I guess they'll park 10 doors up and that will domino all the way up the road.

Motorcycles are treated as cars even thought they take up a fraction of the space.

If tradespeople visit the zones within the restricted period then they must either park in a pay and display, not close to the majority of properties or residents pay £2 each time and purchase guest permits in books of 15 = £30.

There are a lot of unanswered questions still. Presence of skips and or building materials on the roads? Zone 1 cars cannot park in Zone 2, no Zone 2 in 3, etc.

They do say that following the scheme being installed the area would be reviewed approximately six months after and the area either increased or reduced. Considering that they say it costs a lot of money to set up, and then employ Civil Enforcement Offices (traffic wardens) it's hard to believe they'd remove the CPZ.

Another 'informal' questionnaire is attached to the map and must be returned by the Friday 15th May 2009.

Further information: Contact Paul Nevard 020 8313 4889, email [e-mail] or [e-mail]

Nice to see the council 'informally' have introduced this all. Let CPZ Bingo commence.

Good luck to all those outside the CPZ you are about to be swamped... probably.

What a waste of time and money, amazing a Conservative council being anything but. Good vote loser.

[Sarah]

Thanks Reg for the response. I know the Council has to do what it feels is appropriate to alleviate this problem but I really don't understand why we're getting into the 'Pay & Display'' territory here. Surely, if the Council want commuters to still be able to park near the station, wouldn't it be an idea to leave as is on a 'first come, first served' basis or am I being rather naive here? If the commuters refuse to pay (and I'm sure a lot of them will refuse) and the residents can't utilise these spaces, then we, the residents, are going to find ourselves in certain circumstances scrabbling for the spaces that are available - kind of back to square one again isn't it?

I've noticed from the circular received through my door last evening that on average we're going to lose probably a car space in most blocks. I counted this morning and where we currently have say 6 cars we're going to be down to in some cases 4.

I don't want to be the 'moaning minnie' here but wouldn't it have been a lot less problematic, cheaper to set up etc to just put up CPZ signs, mark with double yellows where currently commuters are parking their cars in silly places, and the rest just let us get on with?



Reg Adams said:

Sarah, You asked why the CPZ scheme designed for the six roads on the south side of Beckenham Road (Clockhouse, Elm, Cedars, Queens, Sidney & Blandford) includes mid-day restriction only. I am told that this is because that was the majority preference of residents in those roads. I guess the rationale is that:

1) Rail-commuters are deemed to be bagging a lot of the available parking-spaces.

2) Rail-commuters will be far away from their cars at mid-day and therefore unable to move them out of the clutches of ticketing wardens.

3) £35 for a Permit with mid-day restrictions is a lot cheaper than £75 for a Permit with full-day restrictions.

REG

Sarah said:

Can anyone give me an idea of where we are with the CPZ issue? Its just that the last I heard (prob back in Nov/Dec) was that this was going to be implemented. Since then, nothing - not a word.

I vaguely remember the mention of a Council Meeting being held and it going up for discussion/approval - who knows ...

However, since then - nothing.

Its May in a couple of weeks - we could have invaded a country in the time this has taken.

Thx
Sarah

[Cllr John Getgood, Penge & Cator ward]

I represent just the residents in Zone 1 in Thayers Farm, Chaffinch and Rowden Roads, The consultation document and latest/final plan have thrown up a number of new issues. We have a choice now between two plans, pay and display has been introduced and not all roads are being treated equally. Some residents have asked for a meeting to discuss these. So, we are holding a Zone 1 meeting at Beckenham Library on Thursday 14th may at 7.30. We'll get a leaflet round to those roads as soon as we can.

Cllr John Getgood
Penge & Cator
www.pengeandcatorcouncillors.co.uk